Really? Wow. so I dont have to force myself to complete those last reps when it gets toooo hard?? SWWEEEEETTT :)
In Part I of our discussion on training to failure, I asked you a question:
“When do YOU terminate your sets?”
In the comments section of that post, you responded.
The consensus?
There wasn’t one. I mean, not even close.
Replies ranged from the very conservative “when the speed of movement slows down” (which I think is bogus, and I’ll provide my thoughts in another post) to the much more extreme use of “forced” reps (having a spotter assist you to complete more repetitions, as “the kid” from my previous story reluctantly had me do for him) on a regular basis.
Needless to say, due to the wide range of replies, this is an area that is an area that most here could use some clarification on, and that’s exactly what I plan to give you over these next few posts.
For today, I promised to share with you what I feel to be the ideal point of termination for your sets, but first let’s make sure we’re all on the same page.
What is “failure”?
While fairly self-explanatory, the term “failure” does indeed carry quite a bit of ambiguity within the bodybuilding and fitness communities.
For simplicity’s sake, let’s define failure in terms of completed repetitions.
If you complete a repetition (in good form), you succeed (at completing that repetition, thus no failure occurs). If you do not complete the repetition (again, in good form), you fail.
This is failure.
Some strength coaches will try to tell you that if you barely complete the last repetition of a given set and would not be able to perform any subsequent repetitions, you have trained that set to failure. This is distorting the English language.
When did you fail? You didn’t.
Simply put, you fail when you attempt something and do not succeed.
With that said, here’s my “general” recommendation on set termination:
If you will be unable to complete the next repetition in near perfect form, terminate the set.
In other words, avoid failure.
Why?
Simply put, attempting to move a load (in an already hyper-fatigued state) and having to set it back down because you are unable to lift it again is extremely taxing on a central nervous system, which is the major cause of overtraining.
The harder you push, the more damage you do to your CNS, and the less effective your workouts become. Not only that, but before you know it you’ll be feeling like s#%t, too.
A winning combo, I know.
Bring on the skipped workouts, inconsistency, and lack of progress!
There’s no way around it: abuse your central nervous system with true “failure” training day in and day out, and you’re pretty much guaranteed to fail altogether.
That said, notice I prefaced my recommendation by saying it was a general recommendation.
Do I ever train to failure? Yep. And when used “intelligently”, failure training can yield exceptional results.
At least 120 comments and I’ll share a bunch of “intelligent” methods with you tomorrow.
Until then, train to succeed.
Joel
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92 comments - add yours
i do a planned amount of sets so if i up my reps to max i would probably fail before i finished all my sets
I train with fairly light weights (3kgs – 5kgs for upper body and 5kg – 30kgs for lower body) but my max reps are 20 x 3 sets. I’m not sure it yields results.. but psychologically – if i terminate the sets because i had increased the weights and it’s too hard for me to do it in the correct form, I feel I haven’t worked out properly for the day!
I agree with your idea of failure and have found that if I train to failure on all my sets I battle to do my workout properly, not to mention the headache I get afterwards.I normaly train until until I know that I will not be able to complete the final rep properly
I lose good form considerably before I “fail” (completely CANNOT do it). So in a sense I could say that I terminate when my form fails. I’m still trying to figure out just how to determine this, particularly on my weakest areas (biceps, for example). I do go beyond absolute perfection in my form, but hopefully stop before I’m off enough that I’m doing damage.
Every now and then I like to terrorize myself and perform one humungous workout that goes like this: For a chest day I do incline dumbell presses (and that’s all). I do at least 10 sets, starting with 50Kg dumbs. I usually fail before the tenth rep. I rest for about 45 seconds and then grab the 47.5 kg dumbs. I go to failure, rest, then grab the 45kg dumbs. By the time I get down to 30kg’s I am flat out doing 12 reps. I go to positive failure on each set, but never negative failure. It’s a workout that hurts but it is fun and it gets results. Within a week I can push the 50’s again.
Bogus is a bit of a harsh word, I am anxious to see your argument. There are a lot of very reputable and proven trainers who feel that tempo change is failure. There are a lot that do not also, but you seemed like you felt pretty strongly against it (as if it wasn’t a valid point of view).
Seeing your explanation of failure i suppose i haven’t done that for a year or so now. I tend to push until i know the next rep will either be a failed rep or extremely close to one. i would think that whether you train to failure or not would also be dependant on the frequency of training per muscle group.
I agree with KB and as I said earlier if you know that next rep is toast don’t even try it. I believe it puts you in overload.
Given your definition, and I agree, it’s also agiven that the dividing line between knowing the last successful rep and the next unsuccesful attempt, i.e. failure, can be pretty thin, and we may not always get it right. 2 or 3 short of failure seems a better bet to me
It sounds like some of you need to pick up a copy of the “Poliquin Principles” or Charles Staley’s “EDT” (to name just a couple). These programs can offer tons of advice. I don’t believe you can go wrong with quality trainers like this.
I have to admit, I’m finding it frustrating to only get a tiny piece of info on this subject every day. So, I will wait until tomorrow for another tiny bit…
On another subject, I found the biggest block for me (a woman) to becoming really fit is that there is a benefit to having a body that is ugly from fat and poor muscle tone, which is that it provides great protection from being noticed by men, which, believe it or not, is not something I want, and sometimes downright scary. Changing my body was simple and quick once I had accurate nutrition info and info on how to work out properly without injuring myself; overcoming the attachment to the protection of being invisible is much, much harder.
Sinde I rarely have a spotter (home gym), I use post-failure reps infrequently. However, when I am “peaking” and planning a period of active (or straight-up slothful) recovery, I occasionally go b@lls-to the-wall using the following:
– After benches, pushups.
– After dips and chins, JUMP back up and perform negatives.
– After squats, body-weight jumps.
I will usually just try to guess when I can’t complete the next rep… but my question is for push-ups. I am working on increasing my full (not knee) reps. I can do 4-5 now (to failure), which is so much less than the knee version. But that feels so wimpy, so I’ll rest (usually lying flat on the floor panting!) then try again to failure 2-3 more times. Or, I’ll just switch in the plank position to putting my knees down. Never sure what is best.
i agree. training to failure is a good tool that shouldn’t be overused.
When I was doing SuperSlow (one set to complete absolute failure, at a 10/10 tempo), I couldn’t always tell when I’d fail on the next rep. Sometimes I thought I would, and still completed two more (plus a little). Sometimes I thought I wouldn’t, but did.
So how am I supposed to know when the next rep would fail?
When I train to failure I stop one rep short. If I know I can not complete another rep, in good form, then I stop altogether. When I do move to a High Intensity Training program (HIT) the idea is to train to failure on your third, and final, set. (There are many versions of this program out there, and this is not the only interpretation.) I think this is using it relatively intelligently. The training is intense, and I think it should be. Am I correct in this line of thinking?
Joel; I’ve been reading your articles for a while now. I’ve always trained in groups, back, biceps, & chest, triceps, ext. I’ll stop the rep when i feel that i’m struggling to hard, or over compensating my form. my question is, am I taking the rep to far?
Hi Joel,
When I do shoulder presses, I find my ability varies from session to session. I typically do 5-6 reps per set for four sets – all with the same weight. If I can just barely perform a rep, then I stop at that point. I agree with you, it feels wrong to me to do a set when I know I won’t be able to finish it.
– Jeff
Failure can be both absolute or relative to the goal at hand. If the goal is to move the weight through a whole ROM and you cant, you failed. However, if the goal is to move 70% of your 1RM five times with fast bar speed and you cant, you have failed as well. Failure is relative to your goal, not a dictionary term. So why not scratch sets and reps and just try to achieve a certain number of quality reps only regardless how heavy the weight is. Therefore you can see 24 reps on your chart versus 4×6, 8×3, 3×8 or whatever. The only thing a relatively experienced lifter would need to know is what % of 1RM they are supposed to use. Train heavy, lift fast, grow huge. This is very different for newbies and advanced people though due to CNS concerns, so we need to know what population we are talking about as well. I understand that pushing through challenges is necessary, but most guys fall NUMEROUS reps short of their intended goals anyway and OVERTRAIN and PLATEAU – the ememies of your goals. Looking forward to hearing your suggestions Joel.
Joel,
I do not buy your reply “when the speed of movement slows down” (which I think is bogus,
As slowing is only the 1st part of the equation, it is a signal to tune into your form so that as soon as it breaks down more than slightly terminate the set as you have reached failure
Hi Joel my name is Mario from Venezuela. I´m 39 years old. thank you for yours advices and intelligent and logical point of view. i have a reflection:
You said training to failure often is good but in the mayority of cases its not good because forces our CNS and our recovery wont be ok. Is that you meaning? But here comes my question: Muscles dont grow after a stimulus? such a breakdown while we training those muscles? and that breakdown dont come with proper stimulus, I mean, heavy weights and forced reps? By forced reps I meaning those that requires an additional push of your body, not common. ( Excuse my english if i dont explain me very well) Thank you
Joel,
I like your definition on “failure”. But I have a question:
Let’s say my program said I have to do 8 reps. If I can do 8 reps just fine, should I do one or two more reps
1. if I can still do in good form
2. even if I can’t do in good form ( rest-pause, forced reps, cheat, dropsets comes into mind)
3. Or just stop at 8 reps and increase weight next time?
And I’m still waiting on your take on “pre-exhaust” :-)
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Hey, it’s Joel! So you want to know a little more about me, huh? Well, I’d be happy to oblige :-)
I guess it all started back in 2001 (my freshman year of college) when I was just a “skinny fat” 19-year old kid. At the time, I was spending close to 2 hours a day in the gym (now my workouts last about 30 minutes), and despite my efforts, you’d probably never guess I worked out a day in my life by looking at me...