When You SHOULD Terminate Your Sets

Really? Wow. so I dont have to force myself to complete those last reps when it gets toooo hard?? SWWEEEEETTT :)

i do a planned amount of sets so if i up my reps to max i would probably fail before i finished all my sets

I train with fairly light weights (3kgs – 5kgs for upper body and 5kg – 30kgs for lower body) but my max reps are 20 x 3 sets. I’m not sure it yields results.. but psychologically – if i terminate the sets because i had increased the weights and it’s too hard for me to do it in the correct form, I feel I haven’t worked out properly for the day!

I agree with your idea of failure and have found that if I train to failure on all my sets I battle to do my workout properly, not to mention the headache I get afterwards.I normaly train until until I know that I will not be able to complete the final rep properly

I lose good form considerably before I “fail” (completely CANNOT do it). So in a sense I could say that I terminate when my form fails. I’m still trying to figure out just how to determine this, particularly on my weakest areas (biceps, for example). I do go beyond absolute perfection in my form, but hopefully stop before I’m off enough that I’m doing damage.

Every now and then I like to terrorize myself and perform one humungous workout that goes like this: For a chest day I do incline dumbell presses (and that’s all). I do at least 10 sets, starting with 50Kg dumbs. I usually fail before the tenth rep. I rest for about 45 seconds and then grab the 47.5 kg dumbs. I go to failure, rest, then grab the 45kg dumbs. By the time I get down to 30kg’s I am flat out doing 12 reps. I go to positive failure on each set, but never negative failure. It’s a workout that hurts but it is fun and it gets results. Within a week I can push the 50′s again.

Bogus is a bit of a harsh word, I am anxious to see your argument. There are a lot of very reputable and proven trainers who feel that tempo change is failure. There are a lot that do not also, but you seemed like you felt pretty strongly against it (as if it wasn’t a valid point of view).

Seeing your explanation of failure i suppose i haven’t done that for a year or so now. I tend to push until i know the next rep will either be a failed rep or extremely close to one. i would think that whether you train to failure or not would also be dependant on the frequency of training per muscle group.

I agree with KB and as I said earlier if you know that next rep is toast don’t even try it. I believe it puts you in overload.

Given your definition, and I agree, it’s also agiven that the dividing line between knowing the last successful rep and the next unsuccesful attempt, i.e. failure, can be pretty thin, and we may not always get it right. 2 or 3 short of failure seems a better bet to me

It sounds like some of you need to pick up a copy of the “Poliquin Principles” or Charles Staley’s “EDT” (to name just a couple). These programs can offer tons of advice. I don’t believe you can go wrong with quality trainers like this.

I have to admit, I’m finding it frustrating to only get a tiny piece of info on this subject every day. So, I will wait until tomorrow for another tiny bit…

On another subject, I found the biggest block for me (a woman) to becoming really fit is that there is a benefit to having a body that is ugly from fat and poor muscle tone, which is that it provides great protection from being noticed by men, which, believe it or not, is not something I want, and sometimes downright scary. Changing my body was simple and quick once I had accurate nutrition info and info on how to work out properly without injuring myself; overcoming the attachment to the protection of being invisible is much, much harder.

Sinde I rarely have a spotter (home gym), I use post-failure reps infrequently. However, when I am “peaking” and planning a period of active (or straight-up slothful) recovery, I occasionally go b@lls-to the-wall using the following:
- After benches, pushups.
- After dips and chins, JUMP back up and perform negatives.
- After squats, body-weight jumps.

I will usually just try to guess when I can’t complete the next rep… but my question is for push-ups. I am working on increasing my full (not knee) reps. I can do 4-5 now (to failure), which is so much less than the knee version. But that feels so wimpy, so I’ll rest (usually lying flat on the floor panting!) then try again to failure 2-3 more times. Or, I’ll just switch in the plank position to putting my knees down. Never sure what is best.

i agree. training to failure is a good tool that shouldn’t be overused.

When I was doing SuperSlow (one set to complete absolute failure, at a 10/10 tempo), I couldn’t always tell when I’d fail on the next rep. Sometimes I thought I would, and still completed two more (plus a little). Sometimes I thought I wouldn’t, but did.

So how am I supposed to know when the next rep would fail?

When I train to failure I stop one rep short. If I know I can not complete another rep, in good form, then I stop altogether. When I do move to a High Intensity Training program (HIT) the idea is to train to failure on your third, and final, set. (There are many versions of this program out there, and this is not the only interpretation.) I think this is using it relatively intelligently. The training is intense, and I think it should be. Am I correct in this line of thinking?

Joel; I’ve been reading your articles for a while now. I’ve always trained in groups, back, biceps, & chest, triceps, ext. I’ll stop the rep when i feel that i’m struggling to hard, or over compensating my form. my question is, am I taking the rep to far?

Hi Joel,
When I do shoulder presses, I find my ability varies from session to session. I typically do 5-6 reps per set for four sets – all with the same weight. If I can just barely perform a rep, then I stop at that point. I agree with you, it feels wrong to me to do a set when I know I won’t be able to finish it.
– Jeff

Failure can be both absolute or relative to the goal at hand. If the goal is to move the weight through a whole ROM and you cant, you failed. However, if the goal is to move 70% of your 1RM five times with fast bar speed and you cant, you have failed as well. Failure is relative to your goal, not a dictionary term. So why not scratch sets and reps and just try to achieve a certain number of quality reps only regardless how heavy the weight is. Therefore you can see 24 reps on your chart versus 4×6, 8×3, 3×8 or whatever. The only thing a relatively experienced lifter would need to know is what % of 1RM they are supposed to use. Train heavy, lift fast, grow huge. This is very different for newbies and advanced people though due to CNS concerns, so we need to know what population we are talking about as well. I understand that pushing through challenges is necessary, but most guys fall NUMEROUS reps short of their intended goals anyway and OVERTRAIN and PLATEAU – the ememies of your goals. Looking forward to hearing your suggestions Joel.

Joel,
I do not buy your reply “when the speed of movement slows down” (which I think is bogus,
As slowing is only the 1st part of the equation, it is a signal to tune into your form so that as soon as it breaks down more than slightly terminate the set as you have reached failure

Hi Joel my name is Mario from Venezuela. I´m 39 years old. thank you for yours advices and intelligent and logical point of view. i have a reflection:
You said training to failure often is good but in the mayority of cases its not good because forces our CNS and our recovery wont be ok. Is that you meaning? But here comes my question: Muscles dont grow after a stimulus? such a breakdown while we training those muscles? and that breakdown dont come with proper stimulus, I mean, heavy weights and forced reps? By forced reps I meaning those that requires an additional push of your body, not common. ( Excuse my english if i dont explain me very well) Thank you

Joel,

I like your definition on “failure”. But I have a question:

Let’s say my program said I have to do 8 reps. If I can do 8 reps just fine, should I do one or two more reps

1. if I can still do in good form
2. even if I can’t do in good form ( rest-pause, forced reps, cheat, dropsets comes into mind)
3. Or just stop at 8 reps and increase weight next time?

And I’m still waiting on your take on “pre-exhaust” :-)

Just want to add something to my comment above, if my program said I have to do 8 reps and I can only do 6 reps and can’t do another 2 reps in good form

1. Should I just stop it at 6 reps ? ( seems like it is what you meant in the above post )

2. Or should I continue to “squeeze” out another 1 or 2 reps ( via all those ways I mentioned above?)

Hi Joel ~ I’m a 60 year-old man with Muscular Dystrophy (NON-wheelchair) and I’ve been working out for almost 9 years. My neuro-muscular problem is in the peripheral nerves (elbows to fingertips, knees to toes). I’ve always gone to failure and sometimes I do a few forced reps. I used to be a big fat guy (over 300 lbs.). I’ve lost almost all my excess weight, but my progress in building muscle has been stalled for a long time. Do you think my neuro problems are stymying my efforst to build more muscle? Perhaps I shouldn’t ever go to failure. I’m eager to hear your comments.
Many thanks ~ Conway…

I love reading your suggestions…it gets me fired up for my workouts!

Thank you! :-)

There are only 2 accurate measures of intensity
0% effort where no work is being done and 100% effort
where one more rep has you breaking form and heaving and hoing the weight
and since it is unknown excatly what % is
required to stimulate a growth response it is only logical
to go to 100% when trying to trigger growth however going to failure
is to be used sparingly on only the last set of an exercise
you really have to know your exercise tolerance level
to learn how much is too much effort and frequency
for you but it is abundantly clear that muscle won’t grow
and get stronger unless you give it a very strong reason to
and then allow it enough time before the next workout to
fully recover and then grow.
these are the basic laws of muscle growth above all others.

hi i always take all my reps to failure,except when i have a very physical day at work as i work in the construction industry ,and some times i just cannot make it through some routines.But last week i took a few days off at the gym and when i returned i had an amazing workout

As Mike Mentzer would say if training to failure, even with one set you need to give sufficient time to recover, and depending on the person this can take, from the thousands of people he trained, 2 days to weeks.

Maybe you should read the Article “Understanding Recovery: A wound healing model” by Dave Staplin in which he states that for all steps to recovery to take place can take up to 6 weeks.

@Matt – …where did he mention anything about tempo change? That wasn’t even mentioned; unless I’m blind. Please point it out to me if I’m wrong…

Muscle failure from a biological view is when the golgi tendon organ will cause “weightlifting failure” to protect the muscle and tendons from excessive force. You push, but your arms are lowing the weight all the same. Not many people train to failure even the so called experts. This is the true essence of weight training failure and as you mentioned is beneficial in certain weight training regimes.

However, as we all know go hard go heavy and do the basics. Forget the fancy complicated mumbo jumbo around exercising that do little to nothing for getting results.

@Lucky –

Hey lucky, tell it like it is. If your goal is to get bigger muscles you need overload, rest plus calories. Good comment.

I agree with your comments and appreciate them although I thought I would make a comment. Not everyone is capable to know exactly when failure or last rep before failure is coming unless you are a very healthy person. Due to different medical conditions sometimes you just know your limits from experience, others need to test their bodies or have someone help them. I thought I would make this comment as it is often assumed everyone is healthy and fit without limitatons. I am suggesting some need to learn their limititations and work with their bodies. Reps can vary on them.

I really like what you have mentioned in this post. I do my workouts without a partner and more often than not, i stop when my mind tells me that i have put in my best effort and cannot do another rep with proper form….

When talking about hypertrophy, finishing a set with awful form reps lets fewer energy in the tank to keep congesting the muscle. I totally agree with your failure approach.

How does your periodization between non-failure and failure periods looks Joel. It’ll be interesting to incorporate “shocking weeks” to my workouts.